tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post1051444931563107150..comments2023-10-31T06:31:41.395-04:00Comments on Bottom of the Barrel: One-and-Done Will Never Be DoneBengoodfellahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09401971573776672570noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-24068218039430714992010-03-26T13:05:02.339-04:002010-03-26T13:05:02.339-04:00Here's a novel idea...give scholorship athlete...Here's a novel idea...give scholorship athletes a stipend so maybe they'll want to stay in school and improve their draft position.<br /><br /><br />If I had some job offer that paid a rediculous amout of money when I was a freshman or sophmore in college, I'd have taken it. But I had a lot more fun my junior and senior years, because...well I got laid a lot more, but that's another story.KBillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10204189643490253188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-70102687931815137592010-03-26T09:44:23.468-04:002010-03-26T09:44:23.468-04:00Jeremy, you think Telfair would have been an All-S...Jeremy, you think Telfair would have been an All-Star if he had gone to Louisville for two years? It is possible, but there is a huge discrepancy in where he is now and him being an All-Star, I don't know if being in college for 2 years could have bridged that gap or not. It's possible it could. Rick Pitino is a good coach, but Telfair would have been really difficult to coach out of HS.<br /><br />I do have to wonder if that isn't an NBA failure instead of an NCAA failure though. That is another situation with the NBA mindset that the NCAA is just a feeder system for the NBA...where it's the job of college coaches to teach players the fundamentals and the NBA is too busy to do stuff like that. They just want to make money, let the NCAA worry about making sure the athletes are ready.<br /><br />I can see what you are saying that he went from being better than everyone to being worse than everyone, but it isn't the job of the NCAA or the coach to make a decision for the player. Telfair got told he would be drafted high and ended up in the NBA, where like Gerald Green, the NBA system failed him. He didn't develop because either (a) he didn't want to or (b) he didn't get the best coaching. I don't think players should be prevented from going straight to the NBA a/f HS because the NBA can't take the time to develop players or that certain player doesn't want to work hard enough to develop his game.<br /><br />Maybe college would have helped Telfair and I am not completely disagreeing with you. I am just saying the NCAA shouldn't give a crap if the NBA can't develop players out of HS. The NCAA wants players who also want to go to school (even though we know that is a sham) and are willing to learn how to play basketball better in a team environment. That doesn't seem like Telfair to me. <br /><br />The NCAA should not be viewed as a feeder system to the NBA, even though it ends up being that way. If the NBA wants a feeder system that helps players mature and learn how to develop, do it on their own time in the NBDL or have the coaches teach more fundamentals. College would have helped Telfair some, but I don't think not allowing athletes to go pro and imprisoning them in college for two years when they don't want to be there is the answer. <br /><br />I am fine with the 2 year rule you proposed, I just think players should be able to go pro after HS if they want. If they aren't developed at that point, it's on the NBA and the player himself. The NCAA shouldn't be seen solely as a farm system that helps player get ready for the NBA. In some ways it is that way, but that is where David Stern has run all over the NCAA because he can.Bengoodfellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09401971573776672570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-10579378764623634842010-03-25T23:55:01.907-04:002010-03-25T23:55:01.907-04:00Rich, I'm not saying that college players in t...Rich, I'm not saying that college players in the draft don't turn out to be busts, I'm just saying that there were a bunch of players that came straight from high school to the NBA that clearly weren't ready. If Sebastian Telfair had spent a year or two in college, he would have been an All-Star. I am 100% convinced of that. He had enormous talent, but he never developed because he went straight from being better than everyone in high school to being completely over his head in the NBA. <br /><br />Forcing kids to spend two years in college is pretty much the best-case scenario for everyone. The NBA benefits because the players they get are more NBA-ready. The athletes benefit because they have more time to improve themselves as players, but the time spent in school is not so much that it costs them a lot of money. Colleges benefit because there is more accountability on the part of the student-athletes, and we also get some of the coaches to stop bitching about the one-and-done rule. I think everyone wins with that scenario.Jeremy Conlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999218325324667964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-50781141967926836202010-03-25T22:56:29.326-04:002010-03-25T22:56:29.326-04:00Jeremy,
You propose a 2 year rule because there a...Jeremy,<br /><br />You propose a 2 year rule because there are "too many misses" when it comes to HS players jumping. <br /><br />While this is true, I have two additional points:<br /><br />1. There are a lot of misses out of the NBA draft too. The draft is a crapshoot sometimes and so teams miss on players all the time. <br /><br />For example, had Greg Oden not gone to college, he would have been considered a huge HS bust, but he would have been in the same position had he stayed at OSU for two years (likely would have been a top 5 pick still).<br /><br />2. No one tells these GMs to draft these players. If a GM drafts a guy and he turns out to suck, then the reaction shouldn't be to force players to go to college, but to make sure GMs know what they're getting.<br /><br />I'm aware that it's harder to scout HS talent because of the discrepancy in talent, but again, just because HS players seemingly don't pan out that often shouldn't be a reason to force them to go to the college (because they'll just go to Europe or something and at least get paid), but to let GMs realize that taking a HS kid is often a huge gamble and to only do it when you have an incredible talent available.<br /><br />Basically what I'm saying is that I can't force the players to do something because of the failure on the part of the GMs.FormerPhDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12837594679660975599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-22415049309668770422010-03-25T22:47:01.646-04:002010-03-25T22:47:01.646-04:00Rich, the draft would get in the way in that situa...Rich, the draft would get in the way in that situation. Still its not a bad idea. The scholarship idea would probably not work because these players have no interest sometimes in actually paying for school. I could be wrong, but playing w/o a scholarship is not an attractive option. <br /><br />Still, it would be nice to see. <br /><br />Jeremy, I would consider you to be an NBA guy, so I can see your point of view based on that. There are a lot of misses in the draft but I just think players should be able to get good advice and judge for themselves. Of course, I do like the fact some guys who may have gone pro after HS ended up staying in college b/c they weren't very good. So that is a benefit, I just like it when the athlete can choose for themselves. <br /><br />As a college bball fan I like the idea of a 20 year old limit, but I still think it is a waste since the players don't want to go to college. I would love for the NCAA to not punish schools that have players declare. They would never do that though because they want to keep up the appearance of educating these athletes and doing that would pretty much give the player a pass to not go to class. <br /><br />I can see how you wouldn't buy the recruiting disadvantage rule because it is the same thing has having a transfer. The problem is the surprise guys a team loses, not guys like Wall or anyone like that. Bibby and Brand weren't one-and-done guys so both coaches had a chance to recruit over them and expected them to go. Both of those guys stayed until their sophomore year. Coach K reportedly was a little shocked that Deng went pro after his freshman year. He thought he was a 2 year guy at least. So really isn't not a huge recruiting disadvantage unless the coach doesn't think the player will leave. <br /><br />Another issue is that Duke thought Shaun Livingston was coming there until he decided to stay in the draft, at that point there wasn't much to do with that scholarship. Combine Deng, Maggette and Livingston and they had stopped recruiting one-and-done players. It is not really a recruiting disadvantage and more of a problem caused by the late declare time for HS and college players. That may be fixed at this point. <br /><br />The recruiting disadvantage mostly was in the late deadline to declare for the draft, so part of that may be gone. It's less of a long term disadvantage than a short term disadvantage because if a coach doesn't accept transfers he can always get a scholarship from the player who left for the next recruiting season. So it puts the next season in a little bit of a question mark as to who will replace the player. <br /><br />It's not the rule I am crying about, it is the fact the NBA is acting like this isn't there rule. It is the NBA rule they impose on the NCAA. For some of these players they don't go for an education, that's true, but the one-and-done rule essentially forces players to go to college who have no interest in it. That's really all it is. I cry about the fact I think players should be able to skip college since I recognize they could give a shit about an education. I do like watching them play for that one year though. <br /><br />I'd like to see the D-league used more effectively as well. I would love for athletes to use college to develop their game, but I also think it takes more than one year to do that. Of course, there are exceptions to that rule.<br /><br />Yes, two years is much better than three years, or at least more viable. I could go for that.Bengoodfellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09401971573776672570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-49508323190815346002010-03-25T21:50:05.048-04:002010-03-25T21:50:05.048-04:00I personally love that the NBA has an age requirem...I personally love that the NBA has an age requirement, but I don't necessarily like the one-and-done rule, if that makes sense. I am strongly against any system in which high school players can enter the NBA draft right away, simply because there are WAAAAY too many misses. For every Kevin Garnett, there was a Kwame Brown. For every Kobe Bryant, there was a Ndudi Ebi. <br /><br />I agree that the one-and-done rule isn't the best way to do it, but I'd be willing to bet that the new NBA CBA in 2011 will up the age limit to 20 (thus forcing high schoolers to wait 2 years). If not, I think the NCAA can fix a lot of problems by simply taking a chill pill and recognizing that some players are only going to college to prepare for the NBA. How about this rule: if you declare for the NBA draft and forfeit your college eligibility, the NCAA can't punish your school because you don't feel like going to class. Obviously, this would never happen, because it would involve the NCAA using common sense, but what would be the problem with that? <br /><br />I also don't exactly buy the whole recruiting disadvantage it causes, at least from the "we don't know if he's leaving or not" angle. How is it any different from before the one-and-done rule? Did teams have a crystal ball that told them when players were leaving early, and they all of a sudden lost it when the new rules were put in place? Did Michigan St. know that Zach Randolph was going to leave after his freshman year? How about Coach K with Luol Deng? Or Elton Brand? Or Mike Bibby the year Arizona shocked everyone in the tournament? If anything, it's easier now. Anyone with half a brain knows that Wall, Favors, and Cousins are going to declare for the draft. And guess what? We knew that a year ago too. Someone is going to need to explain to me how this puts coaches at a disadvantage. <br /><br />I really wish people would stop crying about the rule. Are we really still pretending that these kids go to college for the education? Unless the NBA expands the D-League (which I concede wouldn't be the worst idea), kids are going to go to college for the sole purpose of developing themselves as athletes. And I have no problem with that. <br /><br />If I were in charge, I would personally extend the age limit to 20, and force kids to stay in school for two years. It's a good middle ground, because with one-and-done there's very little accountability on the part of the athletes, but if kids were required to stay for 3 years, we're running too much of a risk that a blue-chip player could ruin future money-making opportunities by blowing out a knee in college.Jeremy Conlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999218325324667964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-7969853757802415752010-03-25T18:41:20.522-04:002010-03-25T18:41:20.522-04:00Ben,
I forgot about the draft being so late, but ...Ben,<br /><br />I forgot about the draft being so late, but I also have to consider that there should be some "punishment" for declaring when you weren't ready for college.<br /><br />If the college team has a scholarship, a player could get it, but if not, then give the player the option to go school, but (like the rest of us) pay for things and/or get financial aid from the school.FormerPhDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12837594679660975599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-80833516051325635542010-03-25T17:43:45.140-04:002010-03-25T17:43:45.140-04:00Dylan, I don't blame Stern either. It's no...Dylan, I don't blame Stern either. It's not like I expect him to take the needs of the NCAA into account, but the NBA is running all over the NCAA on this issue. Stern will get away with what he can get away with because he needs to take care of the NBA first. It doesn't mean I can't ignore the effects of the one-and-done rule imposed by the NBA though. Stern needs to do what is right for the NBA, but I think the NCAA should do what is right for them as well...but they really can't do this.<br /><br />I would LOVE the drafted out of HS or three years rule, but it will never work. 2 years is a decent compromise or at least it could be tried out. <br /><br />Rich, that's true. Coaches know to an extent who is one-and-done. I know from personal experience Coach K thought Luol Deng would stay 2 years, if he came to college, but he didn't. Generally they know and can adjust accordingly. <br /><br />I agree with you on killing the kid's decision on what they want to do. They are forced to go to college, which may not be what they want to do...and they are there for such a short period they can't really that much out of the experience. I do think three years may be too much, but I can live with two years. <br /><br />That's another component of keeping kids in college for 2+/3+ years is they may decide that is too long and go to the NBA before they are ready. They will probably be impatient. I don't think putting more HS kids in the NBA is the goal, but letting kids who can have success in the NBA a/f HS go to the NBA. <br /><br />I think the solution is using the NBDL as a farm system of sorts, like in baseball. This will further dilute college basketball because these players will know they have some cushion to develop so they may be more inclined to go pro. I think the NBDL is not being used the way it should be at this point. It's not for developing players, but to put crappy players on a team and still have the rights to them. <br /><br />Jumping from HS to the NFL is so different b/c of the size and body growth a player goes through. It would be hard for a player to do...especially at LB, DT, OL, FB, WR...<br /><br />I like your final thought, but the only problem with it is that the NBA Draft doesn't happen until June, so a college coach can't keep a scholarship open that long and wait. They need to know prior to that date if Player X is coming to his school or not. That was the reason they moved the decision date up. I like the idea you have, but the draft would have to be moved up or something else would have to be moved to allow such a late decision.Bengoodfellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09401971573776672570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-76203339823241652292010-03-25T16:35:05.665-04:002010-03-25T16:35:05.665-04:00Here's my take (for what it's worth). Coac...Here's my take (for what it's worth). Coaches <i>know</i> with relative certainty who is a one and done. You don't think Calipari knew before this season that he'd lose Wall, Bledsoe and Cousins? So if a coach is willing to gamble with one and done type kids, then they're going to have to take the perks with the downfalls.<br /><br />The perk is that you can convince a ton of talent to come to your team if you only go after one and done guys. Some guys want to be "the man," but you can also hit paydirt by convincing kids that if they have to spend one year in college, they might as well be on a championship team.<br /><br />Of course the downfall is that you have to reload every year and/or have "rebuilding" years.<br /><br />The problem I have with keeping kids in college for any length of time is that you essentially kill their ability to make a decision for what they want to do.<br /><br />Say a guy goes out his Freshman Sophomore years and puts up huge numbers. If he has to stay at least three years, then that third year could kill his draft stock, he could be injured and never play again, etc. <br /><br />Sometimes a player just hasn't developed enough after HS to go pro and only needs a year or two of college ball to develop into an NBA level player. So the options are be a late 2nd round pick and make decent money and hamper your development by riding the bench or go to college for X number of years and possibly miss out on X years of NBA level development and salary. <br /><br />There's no real middle ground there and I think a lot of kids might jump to the NBA straight from HS to get the fast cash, especially some of the poorer players. In that regard, you'd have the same "problem" you had back when there was no "one year rule" just exacerbated. <br /><br />Before one and done a fringe player might go to college for a year or two, develop and go to the NBA. If he has to lock in for 2-4 years, the same fringe player who would have before gone to college might now just go straight to the NBA.<br /><br />Compounding this problem is that there's no minor league (NBDL doesn't really count) for kids who want to develop, but don't want to lock into anything for X years, so college basketball has to fill that role to some extent.<br /><br />Football is the same way, but jumping from HS to college to the pros in one year would be nearly impossible for any player.<br /><br />In the end, my thought is that they should let kids go to the NBA whenever they want, if an NBA GM is willing to spend a pick and money on "potential" then they know the risks. However, if a player doesn't get drafted, they should be allowed to go back and play college ball again.FormerPhDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12837594679660975599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-79882543575458069472010-03-25T15:30:10.019-04:002010-03-25T15:30:10.019-04:00I can't say I totally blame Stern for not ment...I can't say I totally blame Stern for not mentioning the academic part the minimum age requirement on Mike and Mike. The NBA did lose $400 million last year, and that has to be his number one concern. It seems obvious to me that he does care about the student athlete, but he has to take into the consideration of the NBA first. <br /><br />I also agree with all the coaches that a player should either get drafted out of high school or stay for a minimum of 3 years. I'd make it 4 years, but as you correctly said, even 3 is unrealistic. Hopefully over time though we can at least get the 20 year old minimum, i.e. 2 years in college.Dylanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02521399272029891606noreply@blogger.com