tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post2059514358332527232..comments2023-10-31T06:31:41.395-04:00Comments on Bottom of the Barrel: I Guess It Is Time to Discuss the Baseball Hall of Fame AgainBengoodfellahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09401971573776672570noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-65846398459889729642012-01-01T22:08:30.420-05:002012-01-01T22:08:30.420-05:00Pat, not a bad observation. I was against Edgar be...Pat, not a bad observation. I was against Edgar being in the HoF. I would vote no, but only because I'm a snob and I probably shouldn't have a vote for that reason. I haven't ever bought the "he didn't play defense" reason for not letting a DH in the HoF. Partially because relievers are part-time players and because starters only pitch every fifth day as well. So they are, in a way, a part-time player. <br /><br />I would leave out Edgar for other reasons, not because of his being a DH. Some writers probably don't realize their reasoning doesn't make sense.Bengoodfellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09401971573776672570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-87374052952325894332012-01-01T21:35:00.577-05:002012-01-01T21:35:00.577-05:00In what state of mind can you convince yourself th...In what state of mind can you convince yourself that Edgar Martinez should not be in the Hall of Fame because he was a career DH and thus, according to that logic, only a part time player and on the same ballot trumpet Lee Smith. A reliever, especially a closer, is the definition of a limited player which writers love to throw out against Martinez's candidacy.Patnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-53523800210551391022011-12-31T15:56:20.447-05:002011-12-31T15:56:20.447-05:00Ivn, I am the same way. I don't like HoF debat...Ivn, I am the same way. I don't like HoF debates in other sports. I don't know of the best way for PED users. I lean towards just saying let them into the HoF no matter what. I don't think we should judge player by player. Should McGriff not be in b/c he wasn't linked to PEDs, though that doesn't mean he didn't use PEDs of course? <br /><br />I'm not a big Edgar fan, but I wouldn't mind if he got in. I don't agree w/ the idea he didn't play defense and that's why he shouldn't be in for the very reason you state. There are bad defenders in the HoF. <br /><br />You can't vote Mattingly in, but leave Bernie out. They seem to be fairly similar hitters. Clearly, Mattingly has Bernie in personal achievements, but Bernie also played right in the middle of the Steroid Era. So if we are going to penalize players for using PEDs, shouldn't we give Bernie a boost for being clean? If he didn't go up against PED users would he have more AS appearances or been higher in the MVP vote? Who knows? It's speculation, but for me, it is hard to put Mattingly in and just say Bernie absolutely shouldn't be in. I don't think either should be in. <br /><br />I was originally against Wallace's way of doing it, but at least he is somewhat open-minded. I don't like he has to ask others their opinion of Bernie, but at least he isn't as closed-minded as Murray Chass. <br /><br />I'm just not a Jack Morris fan. It's not only that he wasn't dominant, but he just wasn't one of the best pitchers of his era...wins be damned. <br /><br />Rich, for me McGriff is probably like Jack Morris. He was really good for a while, but I don't think he is one of the best players of all-time. <br /><br />You bring up great points about Morris. What's worse is even in his best years he wasn't a great pitcher. His best year was probably 1986 and he had a 3.27 ERA and 1.165 WHIP. That's his BEST year. He was a really good pitcher who completed a lot of games. That's about it for me. <br /><br />I guess that's my point. Why give Fred McGriff an advantage for not juicing b/c he didn't get caught? Bagwell didn't get caught and he is getting punished. So at what point is speculation proof of PED use? No players should get more points for being "clean." We don't know who was or wasn't clean. <br /><br />That is a good point as well. I don't hate Wallace did this, but it does bug me a bit he is supposed to be qualified enough to make the decision. Still, at least he is open-minded about voting.Bengoodfellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09401971573776672570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-9137310027182409502011-12-30T15:54:30.592-05:002011-12-30T15:54:30.592-05:00Juan Gonzalez: No.
The thing about the HOF is tha...<b>Juan Gonzalez: No.</b><br /><br />The thing about the HOF is that I think it should be reserved for players that transcend their eras. You say Mantle or Ruth or Schmidt or Ripken and people know who you're talking about regardless of how old they are.<br /><br />Honestly? I completely forgot about Juan Gonzalez being a major league baseball player. When you see his plaque in the HOF are you thinking to yourself "I remember watching this guy play and it was amazing?" Probably not.<br /><br /><b>Fred McGriff: Yes. </b><br /><br />McGriff is on the complete opposite side of Gonzalez for me. I remember McGriff playing and I remember him being really good, but HOF? I don't know.<br /><br />His career high in HRs is 36 in an era where people were hitting 50+, so I don't know if the 490+ HRs is really "HOF worthy" stuff.<br /><br /><b>Jack Morris: Yes. </b><br /><br />Morris played 18 seasons, good for an average of an incredible 14.1 wins a year. He has a career ERA+ of 105 and a career WHIP of 1.3. Those aren't very good numbers for a staff ace, let alone a HOFer.<br /><br />Oh, right, but he has that win against Smoltz in the WS. Cole Hamels should be in the HOF b/c he pitched in the rain delayed game in the 2008 WS! Congratulations Cole!<br /><br /><b>And yes, he should get points for not juicing and representing the game the right way.</b><br /><br />So not only are we going to punish the suspected juicers, but we're going to also give the ones who didn't (although they may have, we'll never know) an advantage?<br /><br />I mean, I could see one or the other, but both? <br /><br /><i>Wallace Matthews has given his readers a chance to talk him into Bernie Williams being voted into the Hall of Fame on Matthews' ballot. I have a hard time figuring out what I think about this.</i><br /><br />Well here's my thing. Twenty years ago, this would have been okay in my opinion since you wouldn't have had the same coverage of sports or the same ability to watch certain teams.<br /><br />However, if you're talking about today's era when you can pay 300 bucks a year to watch all of the games (and if you're a baseball writer, you'd think this would be a good thing to have), then no. Even if you don't want to fork over the money for that, there are only two networks that televise games nationally (Fox and ESPN) during the week and then you can catch highlights from the internet or ESPN... there's no excuse to not know about anyone who is considered a borderline HOFer.richnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-88318602541399916202011-12-30T15:28:32.771-05:002011-12-30T15:28:32.771-05:00also, I looked up Jack Morris's stats. In 18 s...also, I looked up Jack Morris's stats. In 18 seasons, he led the league in wins twice (once in a strike-shortened year), complete games once, shutouts once, innings pitched once, and strikeouts once. He had a few nice years but never seemed all that dominant.<br /><br />Funny how he's championed by writers who are fond of saying, "It's not the Hall of Very Good," when he's got a first-ballot resume for it.ivnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-102327997051254703.post-40499344923488857132011-12-30T15:25:39.224-05:002011-12-30T15:25:39.224-05:00for some reason, I love Hall of Fame debates in ba...for some reason, I love Hall of Fame debates in baseball but not for any other sport.<br /><br />I still think you have to have to have better way to prove PED use than Potter Stewart's method of identifying pornography. (side note: I wouldn't Google "supreme court pornography" at work)<br /><br />I also think Hall of Fame voters have to stop pretending the designated hitter doesn't exist. I admit I'm biased, because Edgar Martinez is one of my all-time favorite players, but there are players in the Hall based almost entirely on their defense and there are players in the Hall who were below-average defensive players. <br /><br />For the most part, a player generally doesn't have much of a choice as to what position he plays — that's something decided by the organization. Edgar's job was to hit, and he did it very well: 95th all time in batting average, 22nd in on-base percentage, 66th in slugging average (34th in OPS and 44th in OPS+), and 64th in offensive WAR. Whether the BBWA wants to admit it or not, the DH has been a part of baseball for 40 years, and Edgar is one of the very best to ever play.<br /><br />And if we're allowed to use "the fact that the Atlanta-Fulton Stadium press box caught on fire the day the Braves traded for him," in Fred McGriff's favor, then I feel obligated to say that Edgar is given credit for helping save baseball in Seattle. So there's that.<br /><br />By the way, thank you for pointing out how hypocritical it is to vote for Mattingly but leave Bernie Williams out. And for what it's worth, I do prefer what Wallace Matthews is doing to Murray Chass's "I have a vote and you don't, so I'm smarter than you," logic. Although Chass seems to be your Moriarty, so I'm sure you'd be the first to agree.ivnnoreply@blogger.com