Let's do a little backstory on this column first. Bill Simmons did a chat the other day on ESPN.com (naturally) and he was asked a question about Tiger Woods and if he would ever be the same golfer again. Bill Simmons responded by saying everything was different now for Tiger and his comeback was harder than Muhammad Ali's comeback from exile for refusing to serve in Vietnam. It's his opinion and he is doing a chat. I find the comparison to be wrong and I don't agree with it. It was just one answer so there was no need to really expand on this wrong opinion.
Well, Charles Pierce who HATES Bill Simmons decided this was another chance to attack Simmons and wrote a blog entry on this statement by Bill. I honestly thought this was a bit of a dick thing to do. I jump on Simmons sometimes, but Charles Pierce is acting like a crazy man in the way he does it I think. He's unrelenting. He panned Bill's book and takes personal shots at Bill on occasion. I am just a stupid blogger who hates sportswriters because he lives in his mom's attic and can't get a real job as a sportswriter. The standards are lowered for me. Plus, Pierce has a whole past with Simmons and really not liking him personally. Google it and you can see a little background on it. Anyway, Charles Pierce is VERY anti-Bill Simmons, while I am anti-bad sportswriting...which sometimes encompasses Bill Simmons. Commenters during the chat openly questioned Simmons when he said this and he tried to explain his point. I disgree with Bill, but didn't find one comment in a 3 hour chat to be worth ripping him apart over.
So Bill Simmons, in an act of defiance and some hubris, decides to write an ENTIRE column on how Tiger Woods has it worse than Muhammad Ali had it. I completely disagree with this and I think if you combine the racial tensions and the Vietnam War tensions together any person could reasonably see that Bill Simmons is wrong.
You wonder why I like Gregg Doyel? Here is his take on the article from Twitter:
greggdoyelcbs
Simmons just wrote that Tiger's comeback is tougher than Ali's after Vietnam. Simmons, meet Mariotti. You're both idiots.
Good times.
I followed up with Gregg Doyel on Twitter by agreeing with him and he responded that basically Simmons' ego and 1 million people will say he is great because he wrote this column and that's all that really mattered. I was against Twitter for a while, but fun times like this makes me like it.
Of course later I inadvertently insulted Gregg Doyel's sister, so the fun times didn't last long.
On to the column...
Writing a column is like chess; you have time to mull strategies and move pieces into the right places. But an online chat? Speed chess.
Which is why sometimes people can generally avoid trying to say things they may want to take back eventually. It's like a conversation with strangers where you have to be on your best behavior. Actually it IS a conversation with strangers.
Now here's why I rarely do chats anymore: Under speed chess conditions, it becomes exceedingly possible that either (A) I might say something inappropriate, (B) I might infuriate my bosses in some way or (C) I might argue a point incorrectly without realizing it until later.
(D) He doesn't have 2-3 days to think of jokes and fake theories that he can link to pop culture. What is revealed is a person who has to be self-referential and rely on his old jokes in order to amuse the masses.
On Friday, I made a mistake comparing the 2010 Tiger Woods to the 1970 Muhammad Ali, saying Tiger's comeback would be much tougher because "everyone under 35 was rooting for Ali." Total hyperbole that never would have happened had I spent more time thinking about it.
So there you go Charles Pierce. Bill thinks he was wrong, sort of. This is a reason I didn't go after one line in one ESPN chat by Bill Simmons. It was a hyperbolic statement. The rest of the chat wasn't terrible.
I do think Bill knows he is wrong about this comparison, but his ego just can't handle him being wrong so he had to follow his comment in the chat up with an entire article in order to try and prove he is actually right about this. Which he isn't.
Of course, now that he has written an entire column on it, I feel the need to comment...
Let's hop on the course and play nine holes (in the form of points) to bang home the point that, yes, Tiger's presumed return to golf in 2010 will be significantly more difficult than Ali's return to boxing in 1970.
9 holes to prove the point? Isn't this just slightly cheesy? If Bill was trying to advocate for Ali on this argument would have gone 12 rounds to bang home the point?
(By the way, I am not a boxing guy. I know so very little about the sport pre-1988, which is when I started watching it. I did research and so that is where I am getting any information I may use to dispute Bill's assumptions/arguments. If anyone knows anything I don't know that makes me look smart/stupid, of course chime in.)
Hole No. 1 (par 4)0
Tiger hasn't played golf competitively in four months.
Muhammad Ali did not box from March 22, 1967 until October 26, 1970. He was away from boxing for over 3 years. I am going to say it is harder to be away from boxing from the age of 25 to the age of 28, which really should be near a boxer's prime, than it is for Tiger Woods to miss 4 months at the age of 34.
That's just thinking about Ali coming back competitively, but not including all the other shit that had been going on at the time. This period was also the biggest period of civil unrest and disagreement in the United States since the Civil War. By refusing to go into the draft, Ali had pissed nearly every single person in the United States off. Remember, in 1967 the Vietnam War was occurring but the United States really hadn't outright lost a war in their entire history, so it was still a fairly popular war. Conscientious objectors weren't kindly looked upon. Especially black, outspoken, Muslim conscientious objectors in a time when some of white America was pretty disturbed (or at least feeling uneasy) about the Civil Rights Movement.
Just Tuesday, there was a news article saying Tiger has returned home and is "trying to get back into a routine that includes golf and fitness." Trying to get back into a routine? That sounds ominous.
Again, it's golf. Golf isn't the most extreme and physically demanding sport, like say, I don't know...boxing. It's easy to get back in golf shape, but Muhammad Ali took 3 years off from boxing to basically fight the United States government. Three years off from boxing is greater than 4 months away from golf.
Hole No. 2 (par 4)
The man is coming off two significant derailments: Reconstructive knee surgery (summer 2008) and a self-imposed exile (winter of 2009-10).
Tiger hasn't forgotten how to play golf though. He was mildly successful when he came back and won 6 tournaments. He proved he could come back strong and play golf after having knee surgery. I don't think a self-imposed exile will have a more negative effect on his game from a physical standpoint than his knee surgery did.
How many times have we seen an imposing golfer lose his way and never regain his mojo? Remember when Tom Watson stopped making big putts? Remember when Greg Norman lost his confidence after too many collapses? Golf is a mental sport. You need a ton of self-confidence, you need an unwavering belief in your own talents and you need to be able to tune out any and all distractions. Hell, Tiger could barely handle someone's camera clicking during his backswing. He's going to be able to handle … this?
This is absolutely pure speculation on what could or could not happen. That's what Bill's entire case is based upon...speculation. Tiger is only 4 months into taking a break from golf and Bill Simmons is already stating Tiger's journey back will be harder than Ali's was. We know how hard it was for Ali, but it is way too early to tell if Tiger is going to come back strong or not.
Asking open ended questions about whether Tiger will be able to come back or not isn't proof that Tiger is actually going to be able to come back and play well again on the PGA Tour.
If Tiger comes back with similar rust, I can't imagine him being able to change his style on the fly as Ali did. Either it comes back or it doesn't.)
I like how Bill is completely ignoring the fact Tiger changed his entire swing after he had his knee surgery and still won 6 tournaments in 2009. Tiger has proven he can change his swing before, so I think he will be able to adjust to playing golf with some rust. It just feels to me like Bill Simmons doesn't know what he is talking about.
It has been well documented that Tiger changed his swing after his knee surgery and has changed the way he plays the game of golf due to "Tigerproofing" of courses and other challenges that come with playing the game of golf and being Tiger Woods. He has changed his style on the fly before, he could do it again. I don't think 4 months away from the game will cause him a whole lot of rust that having surgery and taking 8 months off wouldn't do. I think the idea he will have some rust when coming back is a little exaggerated.
Hole No. 3 (par 3)
Don't discount Tiger's advancing age (34) at this point. Watson never won another major after he turned 34; neither did Arnold Palmer, Fred Couples, Seve Ballesteros or Curtis Strange.
Can't we all agree that Tiger Woods is a different type of athlete than these guys? He has access to resources I am not sure these golfers could ever have dreamed about. I am not saying Tiger Woods is going to win 10 more majors or anything, I am just saying age may not affect Tiger as much as it did these other guys.
Only Jack Nicklaus thrived from 34 to 40 (16 PGA Tour titles, three majors), although Norman (eight Tour titles, one major) and Lee Trevino (six titles, one major) also fared pretty well. Tom Kite peaked after he turned 34. Nick Price won two majors at 37; Mark O'Meara won his only two at 41.
So really Bill has no point.
Let's think about this. Tiger Woods was having sex with multiple women that weren't his wife and managed to keep it from his wife for a period of time. How is this less stressful or any less time consuming than actually being true to his wife and actually spending time with her? If Tiger just takes the time he spent with his various women and spends that time with his wife, there is still exactly the amount of time to put into golf that he had pre-scandal. It makes sense to me.
Hole No. 4 (par 4)
Winning his wife back will require significant effort -- certainly more than Tiger spent on his family pre-Thanksgiving. Ali, Jordan, Tiger pre-2010 … part of what made them great was that they weren't family men.
Right. Tiger can focus all the time he spent in hot tubs with pornstars and move that time over to trying to repair his relationship with his family. None of these reasons by the way have any resemblance to why Ali's road back after exile from boxing was easier than Tiger's.
Also, I don't know what that "family men" comment means. Michael Jordan had a family, so did Ali and pre-2010 Tiger did as well. Whether they were considered family men or not is pretty irrelevant. I would guess these men all found time to mess around with other women, since it is pretty well known this happened with all three, so how does becoming a family man weaken Tiger's game or make it harder for him to come back?
Because Tiger appears to be serious about keeping his family intact, how could that not affect his golf routine to some degree?
It may affect his golf routine. Absolutely no one is arguing this all won't affect his golf routine, but how the hell is this easier than being away from boxing for three years AT THE BEGINNING of your physical prime like Ali was? That's the question.
Ali had his entire ability to box taken away from him, while Tiger Woods would be welcomed back with open arms at any point if he decided to return to golf. How can Bill not take this into account when comparing the situations? Isn't a comeback a little harder when the people who oversee your sport won't let you play the sport AT ALL? Family problems or no family problems, Muhammad Ali had the complete inability during this period to even be licensed to box, much less even worry about whether he could physically come back or not, or even if people liked him enough to watch him box...which was fairly debatable even in 1970.
And what about dealing with the day-to-day stuff any philandering husband faces while trying to win back a wife battling trust issues?
How about the day-to-day stuff Ali dealt with during his court case with everyone hating him for being black, outspoken and a draft dodger? This obviously doesn't count for anything to Bill.
When Ali's second marriage finally fell apart while he was training for the George Foreman fight in Zaire, he simply fell for someone else...Had he been more worried about his brand, losing everything he had, keeping his family together and rehabbing his public image, wouldn't that have affected his performances in the Foreman and Frazier fights at least a little?
Again, this is pure speculation on the part of Simmons. Who knows if it would have affected his performances? Maybe it would have, maybe it wouldn't have.
What Bill fails to see is this happened AFTER Ali had come back. The Foreman fight was in 1974 and Ali was well on his way back at that point. Bill is trying to compare apples and oranges here and not let his audience know what he is doing. We can't compare Ali's comeback and how Ali boxed 4 years after he was given his license back to Tiger's comeback when Tiger is only 4 months into his exile. Ali had fought in 17 fights since he had gotten back from his problems in the late 1960's at that point. The comeback was complete, so he didn't have the external pressures his exiled caused him to deal with at that point. Now if the Foreman fight had happened in 1970 then maybe Bill would have a point, but it didn't, and he doesn't.
Hole No. 5 (par 4)
Once upon a time, everyone left Tiger alone, partly because the media didn't want to piss him off, partly because he crafted such a good buffer between himself and the outside world,
This is not entirely true.
I'm not saying Tiger's life was normal before Thanksgiving, but he didn't have paparazzi stalking him, tabloids making up things about him, bloggers chronicling his every move and people taping him with camera phones everywhere he goes.
Obviously the media frenzy pre-2010 wasn't what it will be when he gets back, but Tiger Woods was still recognized in public and would have people pay attention to his every move. Obviously with this buffer gone there is going to be more of a frenzy, but Tiger Woods was one of the most well-known athletes in the world. There was some attention on him pre-2010 because of this. It won't be completely new to him. I still have no idea how this shows Tiger Woods has it worse than Muhummad Ali did during the years of 1967-1970. I don't think Bill does either.
Hole No. 6 (par 5)
Forget about Ali; not even Jordan faced anything like the current sports/celebrity climate.
This is the only point where Bill Simmons may have a point. The news cycle is going to cause Tiger a lot of stress if he can't focus away from it, which given his ability to compartmentalize I think he could possibly do.
Plus, Jordan had the buffer of a basketball court. Ali had the buffer of a boxing ring and just a few fights per year. Golf? Doesn't work that way. You're walking among fans for hole after hole.
In boxing AND basketball there are fans surrounding the court. To make matters worse at a basketball game a fan can yell anything he/she wants at a player, while this can't always happen on the golf course. This is a weak point.
Tiger also has the advantages of having a much better PR and media group around him than Muhammad Ali did. Everything Tiger will do is going to be well-thought out and well-done, while Muhammad Ali was pretty much public enemy #1 in that he was considered a draft dodging athlete before the tide turned against the Vietnam War. There wasn't much he could do about this perception, other than go to Vietnam, either.
And you can't come and go; you need to be out there swinging your sticks week after week after week in city after city after city.
Tiger found a way to practice in private before this whole scandal started and he will find a way to practice after the scandal ends. What's interesting is that Bill is completely forgetting about Ali's fans being all around him in the ESPN "30 For 30" documentary "Muhammad and Larry." Bill produced that series, shouldn't he remember this? There were literally fans watching Ali practice and spar, fans outside the gym, and everyone wanted to talk to or see Muhammad Ali. This was 1980. Bill is telling me when Ali was in his prime 10 years earlier there wasn't that many fans and press clamoring for Ali's attention? I don't believe it. Ali always had people around him in some fashion, whether he was training or not.
Hole No. 7 (par 4)
How will the fans react? Do we know? Do we have any inkling?
No, we don't know. Because we don't know how the fans will react, and we know how the fans reacted to Ali (before the tide turned against the Vietnam War) doesn't mean Tiger has it worse than Muhammad Ali.
Hole No. 8 (par 3)
When Ali returned from his Vietnam-related exile, he had two massive groups of people pulling for him: Black America and the anti-war movement.
This is probably a little true, but Bill can't ignore what Ali had to put up with during the period of 1967-1969 before the anti-war movement caught on. Ali was gone from boxing so long the anti-war movement had grown by the time Ali was reinstated and Black America was finally seen as something more than a nuisance by anti-Civil Rights people.
Muhammad Ali was denied his right to box because he refused to be drafted. These days athletes don't even have to worry about being drafted, but when Ali was drafted it was seen as a duty by American citizens to go fight for their country when they are called to do so. Ali refused, which was seen by many people as, (a) a famous Black American being disrespectful to the United States, (b) his actual duty as an American that he shouldn't try to avoid, and (c) trying to change the country for the worse, which was much of the fear would happen when schools became integrated and minorities were given equal rights. At the time, Muhammad Ali was EXACTLY what many people in society at the time had feared. He was a strong, outspoken, disobedient, war-hating Muslim African-American.
When Ali returned to boxing, he returned in a completely different political and social climate than when he left boxing. Bill shouldn't completely ignore what Ali went through during the years of 1967-1969 simply because he had more support at the end.
Tiger isn't part of anything. Where will he draw that extra strength from if the fans don't come through for him?
The same place he drew that extra strength from his entire career. His will to win and be better than anyone else playing golf. It's not going to be easy for him to comeback and get back to the level he was before, but that doesn't make what he is going through any harder than what Muhammad Ali had to go through.
Hole No. 9 (par 5)
The biggest wrinkle nobody is mentioning: What if this starts out badly? What if Tiger plays a couple of tournaments and just stinks? What if he can't get anything going? What if the dominant story becomes, "Will Tiger Woods ever get it back?"
I absolutely hate it when sportswriters say, "here is what no one else is talking about..." You usually know at that point they are going to bring up a point that EVERYONE is talking about. For a wrinkle that no one is mentioning, it sure seems like I hear a lot of people wondering if Tiger Woods will ever be as good as he was before. I think that is the crux of this story Bill is trying to write. Few sports fan really cares if Tiger stays with his wife or cheated on her, most sports fans know athletes cheat and get caught. Sports fans want to know how this affects Tiger Woods when it comes to playing golf at a high level again.
Isn't that what this entire Ali v. Tiger comparison is about? Ali got back to a high level through his adversity and Bill wonders if Tiger can do the same?
What if he's dealing with that question constantly, day after day, week after week, city after city, over and over and over again, and that doubt seeps into his head? Ali fought only every few months and had the luxury of picking cream-puff opponents if need be.
But there was a three year period where Muhammad Ali could not fight AT ALL! He wasn't allowed to. We should not be comparing what Ali had to deal with from 1970 to the present, but how he dealt with the shit he dealt with from 1967-1970. This is how Bill Simmons is going to try and prove his point correct, by changing the timeline, but I don't let him do it.
How did Ali deal with the constant questions about whether he would fight again and how people would take him from 1967-1970? Was that harder than what Tiger Woods had to deal with from November 2009-present. I say no. Bill says yes because in the mid-70's Ali didn't have trouble boxing well and society accepted him. He's changing the timeline.
On October 26, 1970 when Ali stepped in the ring against Jerry Quarry, was everything he had dealt with to that point harder to get through than what Tiger Woods will face on "date to be determined" when he finally plays golf again? That's the question. By the mid-70's Ali was back already by fighting in 17 fights as of October 30, 1974, so it shouldn't have anything to do with this discussion.
At gunpoint, if I could wager on any conceivable scenario, I would wager on Tiger coming back in severe Eff You Mode, like a seething MJ in Game 1 of the 1992 Finals. The greatest ones have a way of channeling negativity and fueling it toward whatever makes them great.
Here goes Bill Simmons hedging so he can say if Tiger succeeds he knew it would happen and if Tiger fails he can just link this article. Bill is completely hedging here. You know, he just wants to be right.
So it remains to be seen whether Tiger has Severe Eff You DNA. But if you were him, would you have rather had this saga happen in 1970 or 2010?
1970. There's no question because the media wouldn't have been in such a frenzy, but again, that's not the issue. The issue is whether in attempting a comeback to his sport an athlete would rather be:
1. A world-class golfer in 2010 who cheated on his wife and was found to have multiple affairs and then took a self-imposed exile for a yet-to-be-determined period before attempting a comeback at the age of 34.
Or:
2. A world-class boxer in 1970 who had refused to go to Vietnam to fight in a war when this wasn't a popular decision and was arrested for this, had his boxing license revoked from the age of 25-28, was an outspoken Muslim African-American during the Civil Rights Era and then could only be licensed to fight in one state (with the help of a State Senator) until his case was decided by the Supreme Court.
I am wanting to be the golfer, because regardless of the support Ali had from Black America and anti-war protesters, these weren't the people in charge of boxing nor responsible for shaping public opinion at the time. The tide was turning against the war, but simply because Ali had some support didn't mean he had an easier time coming back. Hell, Tiger Woods has the support of the PGA and major corporations, which in the year 2010 are able to influence public opinion as well as anything can.
Unlike Tiger, Ali loved the limelight and remains the greatest natural resource the sports media ever encountered.
So because he loved being in the spotlight this made it easier for him to battle racial injustice and the United States arresting him being a conscientious objector? I don't think being outspoken and in the spotlight helped Ali any more than it hurt him because the government used him as an example in prosecuting him and claiming he didn't fit the criteria for a conscientious objector.
His biggest issue was a suspension by Nation of Islam leader Elijah Muhammad -- a rift that healed only because Ali became a cash cow postexile, so of course the Nation of Islam quickly made amends -- that briefly worried his camp about his safety.
So having to worry about Ali's safety wasn't anything to overcome either I guess.
But the pressures of Ali's exile (especially in the first two years) shouldn't be confused with the pressure of his actual comeback (which wasn't nearly as daunting as you would think).
Even if I could accept this as fact...the actual comeback of Ali shouldn't be confused with the fact Tiger Woods hasn't even come back yet. His exile hasn't been completed, so just like we can't judge Ali's comeback with the pressures of his exile, Bill can't confuse the current pressures of Tiger's exile with how hard it may be for him to comeback.
America is a forgiving country. I don't know if Tiger is going to have as hard of a time coming back as Bill wants to believe he will have. The hardest part for Tiger will be the exile, just like it was for Ali. Bill is trying to get his readers to focus off Ali's exile and his actual comeback to boxing, as if the pressure of his exile would just disappear when he came back to boxing and these are two separate things, but wants us to focus only on Tiger's exile and comeback as if they are one singular thing that is pressured filled.
Ali was out of boxing for 3 years. Tiger Woods has been out of golfing for 4 months. If Tiger left golf for 3 years his comeback would be incredibly easy because the world would be salivating to see him play again. Tiger's shorter timeline puts more pressure on him and that's why it is wrong to compare the two. Ali's longer exile is what made it harder on him since he couldn't fight professionally in any way, but it also gave the political and social climate time to change. The same thing would happen for Tiger Woods if he waited until November 2012 to comeback.
By the fall of 1970, Ali wasn't getting hounded by paparazzi or picked apart by an obsessive media. If anything, he lost a little fame as the exile dragged along, and he fell out of public consciousness to some degree.
Because he had been banned from his sport for three years! This is something that makes a comeback pretty difficult. The same thing would happen to Tiger Woods if he stayed away from golf for 3 years. The difference is that Muhammad Ali was under threat of being put in prison and COULDN'T rejoin his sport if he wanted to, while Tiger Woods can craftily make up his image and try to move on pretty much any time he wants.
"A substantial portion of the American public disliked him, and worse, they were getting tired of hearing what he was about. But the exile turned that around. It showed people that Ali was sincere. It made him an underdog. … And traveling around the country, speaking on college campuses, Ali was able to bring his message to tens of thousands of young men and women.
So Bill's basic argument is that Muhammad Ali's comeback was easier because he was persecuted by his sport for a longer period of time and prevented from participating in his sport. During this time, he became an underdog and got people to rally behind him. While in his opinion Tiger Woods has a more difficult road because while he has the support of Nike and the PGA Tour, but people don't like him and he hasn't stayed away long enough to where now the increased attention is going to cause him to golf poorly.
I don't know if I buy this argument.
When Ali finally returned to the ring for real, a considerable number of Americans were rooting for him -- not "everyone," as I stupidly overstated in the chat, but a sizable chunk -- and the event itself captured the revolutionary spirit of that era.
A "sizable chunk" is just as non-specific and difficult to prove as just saying "everyone."
But I skimmed through my collection of Ali books, read the old Sports Illustrateds and even sifted through the New York Times articles from that year, and at no point in the fall of 1970 did anyone wonder whether Ali might fold from the pressure of that comeback.
Partially because he had been away from the sport for three years, Ali's comeback seemed easier, but I don't think the fact his comeback seemed easy means it was. How does Bill Simmons not see the fact Ali was away so long made the comeback happen more smoothly, but doesn't actually mean it was less rough than what Tiger Woods will go through?
Sure, there were concerns for his safety in such a violent era -- in fact, policemen and security guards blanketed Atlanta for the exhibition and for the real fight -- but those concerns proved to be unfounded. Nothing happened.
"Sure people wanted to kill him, but they didn't."
I like how Bill uses what we know now, that Ali didn't get injured by a crazy person, as proof it was an easy comeback for Ali. Unless Ali or his supporters were able to predict the future they couldn't have known for sure there wouldn't be violence. Just because we know nothing happened in 1970 before this boxing match in terms of violence while living in the year 2010 doesn't mean this was an easy situation for Ali to deal with.
Add them together, and it's no contest. When Ali actually returned in September 1970, it was a cakewalk compared with what Tiger will face this month or next month or whenever he actually returns.
No comparison? I just can't buy this argument for so many reasons. It took Muhammad Ali 3 years to make it back to his sport and Tiger Woods is going to be able to return whenever he pleases. That alone makes Tiger's comeback easier in my mind. Sure, the press will be everywhere for Tiger but he doesn't have to worry about people trying to commit physical violence against him and Tiger has resources that Muhammad Ali never access to. There was no corporate partner willing to remake Ali's image, he had to wait it out along with the court decision. Tiger has that PR firm and corporate partner and I think he is going to have more support than Bill Simmons thinks.
The mere fact Bill had to quote several sources who wrote that nothing happened unusual or abnormal before, during, or after Ali's first fight back shows there was uncertainty in how Ali's comeback would go. Because if there isn't uncertainty, then why would anyone need to write an article saying nothing happened unusual, if that was expected to happen?
They are the same person. And if you claim that you can predict exactly how that person will emerge from this twisted mess … you are lying.
No one claims they can predict how Tiger will emerge from this mess, but if Bill Simmons can claim anyone knew how Muhammad Ali's fight career would go after 1970...they both would also be lying. I found this to be a terrible comparison.
Good times.
I followed up with Gregg Doyel on Twitter by agreeing with him and he responded that basically Simmons' ego and 1 million people will say he is great because he wrote this column and that's all that really mattered. I was against Twitter for a while, but fun times like this makes me like it.
Of course later I inadvertently insulted Gregg Doyel's sister, so the fun times didn't last long.
On to the column...
Writing a column is like chess; you have time to mull strategies and move pieces into the right places. But an online chat? Speed chess.
Which is why sometimes people can generally avoid trying to say things they may want to take back eventually. It's like a conversation with strangers where you have to be on your best behavior. Actually it IS a conversation with strangers.
Now here's why I rarely do chats anymore: Under speed chess conditions, it becomes exceedingly possible that either (A) I might say something inappropriate, (B) I might infuriate my bosses in some way or (C) I might argue a point incorrectly without realizing it until later.
(D) He doesn't have 2-3 days to think of jokes and fake theories that he can link to pop culture. What is revealed is a person who has to be self-referential and rely on his old jokes in order to amuse the masses.
On Friday, I made a mistake comparing the 2010 Tiger Woods to the 1970 Muhammad Ali, saying Tiger's comeback would be much tougher because "everyone under 35 was rooting for Ali." Total hyperbole that never would have happened had I spent more time thinking about it.
So there you go Charles Pierce. Bill thinks he was wrong, sort of. This is a reason I didn't go after one line in one ESPN chat by Bill Simmons. It was a hyperbolic statement. The rest of the chat wasn't terrible.
I do think Bill knows he is wrong about this comparison, but his ego just can't handle him being wrong so he had to follow his comment in the chat up with an entire article in order to try and prove he is actually right about this. Which he isn't.
Of course, now that he has written an entire column on it, I feel the need to comment...
Let's hop on the course and play nine holes (in the form of points) to bang home the point that, yes, Tiger's presumed return to golf in 2010 will be significantly more difficult than Ali's return to boxing in 1970.
9 holes to prove the point? Isn't this just slightly cheesy? If Bill was trying to advocate for Ali on this argument would have gone 12 rounds to bang home the point?
(By the way, I am not a boxing guy. I know so very little about the sport pre-1988, which is when I started watching it. I did research and so that is where I am getting any information I may use to dispute Bill's assumptions/arguments. If anyone knows anything I don't know that makes me look smart/stupid, of course chime in.)
Hole No. 1 (par 4)0
Tiger hasn't played golf competitively in four months.
Muhammad Ali did not box from March 22, 1967 until October 26, 1970. He was away from boxing for over 3 years. I am going to say it is harder to be away from boxing from the age of 25 to the age of 28, which really should be near a boxer's prime, than it is for Tiger Woods to miss 4 months at the age of 34.
That's just thinking about Ali coming back competitively, but not including all the other shit that had been going on at the time. This period was also the biggest period of civil unrest and disagreement in the United States since the Civil War. By refusing to go into the draft, Ali had pissed nearly every single person in the United States off. Remember, in 1967 the Vietnam War was occurring but the United States really hadn't outright lost a war in their entire history, so it was still a fairly popular war. Conscientious objectors weren't kindly looked upon. Especially black, outspoken, Muslim conscientious objectors in a time when some of white America was pretty disturbed (or at least feeling uneasy) about the Civil Rights Movement.
Just Tuesday, there was a news article saying Tiger has returned home and is "trying to get back into a routine that includes golf and fitness." Trying to get back into a routine? That sounds ominous.
Again, it's golf. Golf isn't the most extreme and physically demanding sport, like say, I don't know...boxing. It's easy to get back in golf shape, but Muhammad Ali took 3 years off from boxing to basically fight the United States government. Three years off from boxing is greater than 4 months away from golf.
Hole No. 2 (par 4)
The man is coming off two significant derailments: Reconstructive knee surgery (summer 2008) and a self-imposed exile (winter of 2009-10).
Tiger hasn't forgotten how to play golf though. He was mildly successful when he came back and won 6 tournaments. He proved he could come back strong and play golf after having knee surgery. I don't think a self-imposed exile will have a more negative effect on his game from a physical standpoint than his knee surgery did.
How many times have we seen an imposing golfer lose his way and never regain his mojo? Remember when Tom Watson stopped making big putts? Remember when Greg Norman lost his confidence after too many collapses? Golf is a mental sport. You need a ton of self-confidence, you need an unwavering belief in your own talents and you need to be able to tune out any and all distractions. Hell, Tiger could barely handle someone's camera clicking during his backswing. He's going to be able to handle … this?
This is absolutely pure speculation on what could or could not happen. That's what Bill's entire case is based upon...speculation. Tiger is only 4 months into taking a break from golf and Bill Simmons is already stating Tiger's journey back will be harder than Ali's was. We know how hard it was for Ali, but it is way too early to tell if Tiger is going to come back strong or not.
Asking open ended questions about whether Tiger will be able to come back or not isn't proof that Tiger is actually going to be able to come back and play well again on the PGA Tour.
If Tiger comes back with similar rust, I can't imagine him being able to change his style on the fly as Ali did. Either it comes back or it doesn't.)
I like how Bill is completely ignoring the fact Tiger changed his entire swing after he had his knee surgery and still won 6 tournaments in 2009. Tiger has proven he can change his swing before, so I think he will be able to adjust to playing golf with some rust. It just feels to me like Bill Simmons doesn't know what he is talking about.
It has been well documented that Tiger changed his swing after his knee surgery and has changed the way he plays the game of golf due to "Tigerproofing" of courses and other challenges that come with playing the game of golf and being Tiger Woods. He has changed his style on the fly before, he could do it again. I don't think 4 months away from the game will cause him a whole lot of rust that having surgery and taking 8 months off wouldn't do. I think the idea he will have some rust when coming back is a little exaggerated.
Hole No. 3 (par 3)
Don't discount Tiger's advancing age (34) at this point. Watson never won another major after he turned 34; neither did Arnold Palmer, Fred Couples, Seve Ballesteros or Curtis Strange.
Can't we all agree that Tiger Woods is a different type of athlete than these guys? He has access to resources I am not sure these golfers could ever have dreamed about. I am not saying Tiger Woods is going to win 10 more majors or anything, I am just saying age may not affect Tiger as much as it did these other guys.
Only Jack Nicklaus thrived from 34 to 40 (16 PGA Tour titles, three majors), although Norman (eight Tour titles, one major) and Lee Trevino (six titles, one major) also fared pretty well. Tom Kite peaked after he turned 34. Nick Price won two majors at 37; Mark O'Meara won his only two at 41.
So really Bill has no point.
Let's think about this. Tiger Woods was having sex with multiple women that weren't his wife and managed to keep it from his wife for a period of time. How is this less stressful or any less time consuming than actually being true to his wife and actually spending time with her? If Tiger just takes the time he spent with his various women and spends that time with his wife, there is still exactly the amount of time to put into golf that he had pre-scandal. It makes sense to me.
Hole No. 4 (par 4)
Winning his wife back will require significant effort -- certainly more than Tiger spent on his family pre-Thanksgiving. Ali, Jordan, Tiger pre-2010 … part of what made them great was that they weren't family men.
Right. Tiger can focus all the time he spent in hot tubs with pornstars and move that time over to trying to repair his relationship with his family. None of these reasons by the way have any resemblance to why Ali's road back after exile from boxing was easier than Tiger's.
Also, I don't know what that "family men" comment means. Michael Jordan had a family, so did Ali and pre-2010 Tiger did as well. Whether they were considered family men or not is pretty irrelevant. I would guess these men all found time to mess around with other women, since it is pretty well known this happened with all three, so how does becoming a family man weaken Tiger's game or make it harder for him to come back?
Because Tiger appears to be serious about keeping his family intact, how could that not affect his golf routine to some degree?
It may affect his golf routine. Absolutely no one is arguing this all won't affect his golf routine, but how the hell is this easier than being away from boxing for three years AT THE BEGINNING of your physical prime like Ali was? That's the question.
Ali had his entire ability to box taken away from him, while Tiger Woods would be welcomed back with open arms at any point if he decided to return to golf. How can Bill not take this into account when comparing the situations? Isn't a comeback a little harder when the people who oversee your sport won't let you play the sport AT ALL? Family problems or no family problems, Muhammad Ali had the complete inability during this period to even be licensed to box, much less even worry about whether he could physically come back or not, or even if people liked him enough to watch him box...which was fairly debatable even in 1970.
And what about dealing with the day-to-day stuff any philandering husband faces while trying to win back a wife battling trust issues?
How about the day-to-day stuff Ali dealt with during his court case with everyone hating him for being black, outspoken and a draft dodger? This obviously doesn't count for anything to Bill.
When Ali's second marriage finally fell apart while he was training for the George Foreman fight in Zaire, he simply fell for someone else...Had he been more worried about his brand, losing everything he had, keeping his family together and rehabbing his public image, wouldn't that have affected his performances in the Foreman and Frazier fights at least a little?
Again, this is pure speculation on the part of Simmons. Who knows if it would have affected his performances? Maybe it would have, maybe it wouldn't have.
What Bill fails to see is this happened AFTER Ali had come back. The Foreman fight was in 1974 and Ali was well on his way back at that point. Bill is trying to compare apples and oranges here and not let his audience know what he is doing. We can't compare Ali's comeback and how Ali boxed 4 years after he was given his license back to Tiger's comeback when Tiger is only 4 months into his exile. Ali had fought in 17 fights since he had gotten back from his problems in the late 1960's at that point. The comeback was complete, so he didn't have the external pressures his exiled caused him to deal with at that point. Now if the Foreman fight had happened in 1970 then maybe Bill would have a point, but it didn't, and he doesn't.
Hole No. 5 (par 4)
Once upon a time, everyone left Tiger alone, partly because the media didn't want to piss him off, partly because he crafted such a good buffer between himself and the outside world,
This is not entirely true.
I'm not saying Tiger's life was normal before Thanksgiving, but he didn't have paparazzi stalking him, tabloids making up things about him, bloggers chronicling his every move and people taping him with camera phones everywhere he goes.
Obviously the media frenzy pre-2010 wasn't what it will be when he gets back, but Tiger Woods was still recognized in public and would have people pay attention to his every move. Obviously with this buffer gone there is going to be more of a frenzy, but Tiger Woods was one of the most well-known athletes in the world. There was some attention on him pre-2010 because of this. It won't be completely new to him. I still have no idea how this shows Tiger Woods has it worse than Muhummad Ali did during the years of 1967-1970. I don't think Bill does either.
Hole No. 6 (par 5)
Forget about Ali; not even Jordan faced anything like the current sports/celebrity climate.
This is the only point where Bill Simmons may have a point. The news cycle is going to cause Tiger a lot of stress if he can't focus away from it, which given his ability to compartmentalize I think he could possibly do.
Plus, Jordan had the buffer of a basketball court. Ali had the buffer of a boxing ring and just a few fights per year. Golf? Doesn't work that way. You're walking among fans for hole after hole.
In boxing AND basketball there are fans surrounding the court. To make matters worse at a basketball game a fan can yell anything he/she wants at a player, while this can't always happen on the golf course. This is a weak point.
Tiger also has the advantages of having a much better PR and media group around him than Muhammad Ali did. Everything Tiger will do is going to be well-thought out and well-done, while Muhammad Ali was pretty much public enemy #1 in that he was considered a draft dodging athlete before the tide turned against the Vietnam War. There wasn't much he could do about this perception, other than go to Vietnam, either.
And you can't come and go; you need to be out there swinging your sticks week after week after week in city after city after city.
Tiger found a way to practice in private before this whole scandal started and he will find a way to practice after the scandal ends. What's interesting is that Bill is completely forgetting about Ali's fans being all around him in the ESPN "30 For 30" documentary "Muhammad and Larry." Bill produced that series, shouldn't he remember this? There were literally fans watching Ali practice and spar, fans outside the gym, and everyone wanted to talk to or see Muhammad Ali. This was 1980. Bill is telling me when Ali was in his prime 10 years earlier there wasn't that many fans and press clamoring for Ali's attention? I don't believe it. Ali always had people around him in some fashion, whether he was training or not.
Hole No. 7 (par 4)
How will the fans react? Do we know? Do we have any inkling?
No, we don't know. Because we don't know how the fans will react, and we know how the fans reacted to Ali (before the tide turned against the Vietnam War) doesn't mean Tiger has it worse than Muhammad Ali.
Hole No. 8 (par 3)
When Ali returned from his Vietnam-related exile, he had two massive groups of people pulling for him: Black America and the anti-war movement.
This is probably a little true, but Bill can't ignore what Ali had to put up with during the period of 1967-1969 before the anti-war movement caught on. Ali was gone from boxing so long the anti-war movement had grown by the time Ali was reinstated and Black America was finally seen as something more than a nuisance by anti-Civil Rights people.
Muhammad Ali was denied his right to box because he refused to be drafted. These days athletes don't even have to worry about being drafted, but when Ali was drafted it was seen as a duty by American citizens to go fight for their country when they are called to do so. Ali refused, which was seen by many people as, (a) a famous Black American being disrespectful to the United States, (b) his actual duty as an American that he shouldn't try to avoid, and (c) trying to change the country for the worse, which was much of the fear would happen when schools became integrated and minorities were given equal rights. At the time, Muhammad Ali was EXACTLY what many people in society at the time had feared. He was a strong, outspoken, disobedient, war-hating Muslim African-American.
When Ali returned to boxing, he returned in a completely different political and social climate than when he left boxing. Bill shouldn't completely ignore what Ali went through during the years of 1967-1969 simply because he had more support at the end.
Tiger isn't part of anything. Where will he draw that extra strength from if the fans don't come through for him?
The same place he drew that extra strength from his entire career. His will to win and be better than anyone else playing golf. It's not going to be easy for him to comeback and get back to the level he was before, but that doesn't make what he is going through any harder than what Muhammad Ali had to go through.
Hole No. 9 (par 5)
The biggest wrinkle nobody is mentioning: What if this starts out badly? What if Tiger plays a couple of tournaments and just stinks? What if he can't get anything going? What if the dominant story becomes, "Will Tiger Woods ever get it back?"
I absolutely hate it when sportswriters say, "here is what no one else is talking about..." You usually know at that point they are going to bring up a point that EVERYONE is talking about. For a wrinkle that no one is mentioning, it sure seems like I hear a lot of people wondering if Tiger Woods will ever be as good as he was before. I think that is the crux of this story Bill is trying to write. Few sports fan really cares if Tiger stays with his wife or cheated on her, most sports fans know athletes cheat and get caught. Sports fans want to know how this affects Tiger Woods when it comes to playing golf at a high level again.
Isn't that what this entire Ali v. Tiger comparison is about? Ali got back to a high level through his adversity and Bill wonders if Tiger can do the same?
What if he's dealing with that question constantly, day after day, week after week, city after city, over and over and over again, and that doubt seeps into his head? Ali fought only every few months and had the luxury of picking cream-puff opponents if need be.
But there was a three year period where Muhammad Ali could not fight AT ALL! He wasn't allowed to. We should not be comparing what Ali had to deal with from 1970 to the present, but how he dealt with the shit he dealt with from 1967-1970. This is how Bill Simmons is going to try and prove his point correct, by changing the timeline, but I don't let him do it.
How did Ali deal with the constant questions about whether he would fight again and how people would take him from 1967-1970? Was that harder than what Tiger Woods had to deal with from November 2009-present. I say no. Bill says yes because in the mid-70's Ali didn't have trouble boxing well and society accepted him. He's changing the timeline.
On October 26, 1970 when Ali stepped in the ring against Jerry Quarry, was everything he had dealt with to that point harder to get through than what Tiger Woods will face on "date to be determined" when he finally plays golf again? That's the question. By the mid-70's Ali was back already by fighting in 17 fights as of October 30, 1974, so it shouldn't have anything to do with this discussion.
At gunpoint, if I could wager on any conceivable scenario, I would wager on Tiger coming back in severe Eff You Mode, like a seething MJ in Game 1 of the 1992 Finals. The greatest ones have a way of channeling negativity and fueling it toward whatever makes them great.
Here goes Bill Simmons hedging so he can say if Tiger succeeds he knew it would happen and if Tiger fails he can just link this article. Bill is completely hedging here. You know, he just wants to be right.
So it remains to be seen whether Tiger has Severe Eff You DNA. But if you were him, would you have rather had this saga happen in 1970 or 2010?
1970. There's no question because the media wouldn't have been in such a frenzy, but again, that's not the issue. The issue is whether in attempting a comeback to his sport an athlete would rather be:
1. A world-class golfer in 2010 who cheated on his wife and was found to have multiple affairs and then took a self-imposed exile for a yet-to-be-determined period before attempting a comeback at the age of 34.
Or:
2. A world-class boxer in 1970 who had refused to go to Vietnam to fight in a war when this wasn't a popular decision and was arrested for this, had his boxing license revoked from the age of 25-28, was an outspoken Muslim African-American during the Civil Rights Era and then could only be licensed to fight in one state (with the help of a State Senator) until his case was decided by the Supreme Court.
I am wanting to be the golfer, because regardless of the support Ali had from Black America and anti-war protesters, these weren't the people in charge of boxing nor responsible for shaping public opinion at the time. The tide was turning against the war, but simply because Ali had some support didn't mean he had an easier time coming back. Hell, Tiger Woods has the support of the PGA and major corporations, which in the year 2010 are able to influence public opinion as well as anything can.
Unlike Tiger, Ali loved the limelight and remains the greatest natural resource the sports media ever encountered.
So because he loved being in the spotlight this made it easier for him to battle racial injustice and the United States arresting him being a conscientious objector? I don't think being outspoken and in the spotlight helped Ali any more than it hurt him because the government used him as an example in prosecuting him and claiming he didn't fit the criteria for a conscientious objector.
His biggest issue was a suspension by Nation of Islam leader Elijah Muhammad -- a rift that healed only because Ali became a cash cow postexile, so of course the Nation of Islam quickly made amends -- that briefly worried his camp about his safety.
So having to worry about Ali's safety wasn't anything to overcome either I guess.
But the pressures of Ali's exile (especially in the first two years) shouldn't be confused with the pressure of his actual comeback (which wasn't nearly as daunting as you would think).
Even if I could accept this as fact...the actual comeback of Ali shouldn't be confused with the fact Tiger Woods hasn't even come back yet. His exile hasn't been completed, so just like we can't judge Ali's comeback with the pressures of his exile, Bill can't confuse the current pressures of Tiger's exile with how hard it may be for him to comeback.
America is a forgiving country. I don't know if Tiger is going to have as hard of a time coming back as Bill wants to believe he will have. The hardest part for Tiger will be the exile, just like it was for Ali. Bill is trying to get his readers to focus off Ali's exile and his actual comeback to boxing, as if the pressure of his exile would just disappear when he came back to boxing and these are two separate things, but wants us to focus only on Tiger's exile and comeback as if they are one singular thing that is pressured filled.
Ali was out of boxing for 3 years. Tiger Woods has been out of golfing for 4 months. If Tiger left golf for 3 years his comeback would be incredibly easy because the world would be salivating to see him play again. Tiger's shorter timeline puts more pressure on him and that's why it is wrong to compare the two. Ali's longer exile is what made it harder on him since he couldn't fight professionally in any way, but it also gave the political and social climate time to change. The same thing would happen for Tiger Woods if he waited until November 2012 to comeback.
By the fall of 1970, Ali wasn't getting hounded by paparazzi or picked apart by an obsessive media. If anything, he lost a little fame as the exile dragged along, and he fell out of public consciousness to some degree.
Because he had been banned from his sport for three years! This is something that makes a comeback pretty difficult. The same thing would happen to Tiger Woods if he stayed away from golf for 3 years. The difference is that Muhammad Ali was under threat of being put in prison and COULDN'T rejoin his sport if he wanted to, while Tiger Woods can craftily make up his image and try to move on pretty much any time he wants.
"A substantial portion of the American public disliked him, and worse, they were getting tired of hearing what he was about. But the exile turned that around. It showed people that Ali was sincere. It made him an underdog. … And traveling around the country, speaking on college campuses, Ali was able to bring his message to tens of thousands of young men and women.
So Bill's basic argument is that Muhammad Ali's comeback was easier because he was persecuted by his sport for a longer period of time and prevented from participating in his sport. During this time, he became an underdog and got people to rally behind him. While in his opinion Tiger Woods has a more difficult road because while he has the support of Nike and the PGA Tour, but people don't like him and he hasn't stayed away long enough to where now the increased attention is going to cause him to golf poorly.
I don't know if I buy this argument.
When Ali finally returned to the ring for real, a considerable number of Americans were rooting for him -- not "everyone," as I stupidly overstated in the chat, but a sizable chunk -- and the event itself captured the revolutionary spirit of that era.
A "sizable chunk" is just as non-specific and difficult to prove as just saying "everyone."
But I skimmed through my collection of Ali books, read the old Sports Illustrateds and even sifted through the New York Times articles from that year, and at no point in the fall of 1970 did anyone wonder whether Ali might fold from the pressure of that comeback.
Partially because he had been away from the sport for three years, Ali's comeback seemed easier, but I don't think the fact his comeback seemed easy means it was. How does Bill Simmons not see the fact Ali was away so long made the comeback happen more smoothly, but doesn't actually mean it was less rough than what Tiger Woods will go through?
Sure, there were concerns for his safety in such a violent era -- in fact, policemen and security guards blanketed Atlanta for the exhibition and for the real fight -- but those concerns proved to be unfounded. Nothing happened.
"Sure people wanted to kill him, but they didn't."
I like how Bill uses what we know now, that Ali didn't get injured by a crazy person, as proof it was an easy comeback for Ali. Unless Ali or his supporters were able to predict the future they couldn't have known for sure there wouldn't be violence. Just because we know nothing happened in 1970 before this boxing match in terms of violence while living in the year 2010 doesn't mean this was an easy situation for Ali to deal with.
Add them together, and it's no contest. When Ali actually returned in September 1970, it was a cakewalk compared with what Tiger will face this month or next month or whenever he actually returns.
No comparison? I just can't buy this argument for so many reasons. It took Muhammad Ali 3 years to make it back to his sport and Tiger Woods is going to be able to return whenever he pleases. That alone makes Tiger's comeback easier in my mind. Sure, the press will be everywhere for Tiger but he doesn't have to worry about people trying to commit physical violence against him and Tiger has resources that Muhammad Ali never access to. There was no corporate partner willing to remake Ali's image, he had to wait it out along with the court decision. Tiger has that PR firm and corporate partner and I think he is going to have more support than Bill Simmons thinks.
The mere fact Bill had to quote several sources who wrote that nothing happened unusual or abnormal before, during, or after Ali's first fight back shows there was uncertainty in how Ali's comeback would go. Because if there isn't uncertainty, then why would anyone need to write an article saying nothing happened unusual, if that was expected to happen?
They are the same person. And if you claim that you can predict exactly how that person will emerge from this twisted mess … you are lying.
No one claims they can predict how Tiger will emerge from this mess, but if Bill Simmons can claim anyone knew how Muhammad Ali's fight career would go after 1970...they both would also be lying. I found this to be a terrible comparison.
Nothing Tiger Woods has ever experienced compares to the hate directed toward Mohammed Ali. As an outspoken black man in the 60s, he was widely reviled before the draft controversy, and a many more people despised him after that.
ReplyDeleteI have only anecdotal evidence to back it up, but I don't think many thought he had a chance of regaining his title after three years out of the ring.
Had he been more worried about his brand, losing everything he had, keeping his family together and rehabbing his public image, wouldn't that have affected his performances in the Foreman and Frazier fights at least a little?
ReplyDeleteThis sums up Simmons' entire point for me. He wants Tiger's comeback to be more difficult, so instead of focusing on the factors outside of their lives that they can't control (like being hated for being black and a draft dodger) and squarely focuses on things that are completely controllable by the athlete.
Tiger seems to want to keep his marriage together, but that's his personal choice. While it certainly makes his comeback harder for him, there are two issues.
1. Who is to say Ali didn't feel the same way about his divorces as Tiger does about the fear of being divorced? Just because Ali (who at 28 and a world class athlete was probably swimming in women) gave the perception that he didn't care and had moved on to another woman, doesn't mean it didn't absolutely kill him inside. Likewise, maybe Tiger outwardly seems to want to keep his marriage together, but really doesn't care about it. What a person does and how they feel are sometimes two completely different things, especially with high profile people.
2. Tiger made the choice to keep his marriage alive, which was only threatened because of something he did. Ali made the moral decision to not be forced to fight in a war (which is completely justified IMO) while also being black and was crucified for it. Tiger made the moral choice to sleep with a bunch of women and likewise made the choice to be faithful to his wife.
To say Tiger has it worse because of the decisions he's making that Ali didn't make is a flawed argument. Just as relying on their actions isn't a good indicator of what's going on in their heads, but those are the two things Simmons uses to make his point.
Bill also fails to recognize two things about Tiger's life, and in fact is refuted by Tiger's actions he has taken his whole career in one of his arguments.
ReplyDelete1. This took place during golf's off season. Tiger hasn't even missed 4 months, he's missed like 5 weeks. Sure he missed some practice time and such, but let's face it, his routine during the off season wouldn't be anything like his routine in the regular season.
2. "...you need to be out there swinging your sticks week after week after week...." Bullshit. Tiger has NEVER been this kind of golfer. Dude takes more time off from the Tour then anybody else. He plays for the Majors, and sets his schedule around sponsors and tuning up for the Majors. He has never been a swing his stick week after week kind of guy. I would make the argument that there might not be a golfer in history who is more suited for coming back after a layoff like this than Tiger.
Bill is the epitome of the "I wasn't there, how good/tough/special could it have been" kind of person. The best/greatest must happen now, because it's when I'm around! Right?!
All Bill has to do is go look at the hype for the Frazier v Ali fight at Madison Square Garden to realize that not even close to most of the nation was pulling for him. I was a small child, but even I remember the arguments among my large extended Irish Catholic family about Ali and Frazier, and most of them disliked or hated Ali, with my mom having been one of his only supporters. This fight was epic, huge, Super Bowl-esque, to the point that huge stars like Sinatra had to finagle a press card from Life magazine to get ringside to take photos. March 1971, Ali's THIRD fight after coming back was for the heavyweight championship. With the entire world watching, and America divided in its support. Yeah, no pressure there, right Bill?
How Bill manages to mangle this and go all the way up to what Ben points out is a fight in 74 and more then a dozen fights later is beyond me. Tiger doesn't face 10% of the pressure Ali faced, if for no other reason then a golf course doesn't hit back.
Kent, I would agree. That's my basic point. Ali was despised and hated just for being who he was. I wasn't around for this, but neither was Bill, and his Tiger argument is based on being able to predict the future.
ReplyDeleteRich, great point. Tiger is making a personal choice to pay more attention his family (supposedly) rather than having circumstances forced upon him like Ali did. It is impossible to read minds and Muhammad Ali always struck me as the type that wouldn't necessarily show his emotions if he was struggling with personal problems. Plus, he was a boxer so he could focus the anger on his opponent.
Sometimes actions can show how a person feels but I would argue this is even harder to see with high profile athletes since they are used to having to keep their lives more private and compartmentalize their feelings for the sake of their performance on the field, court, or ring.
Martin, I forgot to make that point, but it's a good one. Tiger hasn't missed much of the season. The PGA Tour wants him back too.
Tiger HAS always missed tournaments and gotten himself ready for the majors rather than play week-to-week. I think Tiger can handle the layoff when he comes back also. I am not saying he will be the Tiger of old immediately, but he is a different breed of athlete and I have faith in him. He was juggling a lot of stuff before too, as we all know now.
For some reason, Bill doesn't think America was divided in support b/c Ali had the anti-war protesters and Black American on his side. I don't think he had entirely both groups, but I don't know for sure. I think Ali was still a divisive person and the fact SI and other magazines reported nothing happened in his first fight back shows something could have happened.
The fight in 1974 really doesn't have much to do with this in my mind at all. Ali had so much pressure society-wise and politically, I think Bill is underestimating how forgiving America may be of Tiger.
I don't know how Bill would think all of black America was on his side since it is commonly believed the Nation of Islam had a contract out on his life, which Bill seems aware of. And as someone who watched Ali-Quarry as a kid, I can tell you not everyone believed Ali would win, and if Quarry wasn't such a bleeder, it might well have been a tough fight. (Quarry wasn't in the Ali-Frazier class of boxing gods, but he was a strong fighter.)
ReplyDeleteLook what happened to Larry Holmes when he tried to come back after a layoff. He was one step up from a tomato can. Ali's comeback is probably one of the contenders for greatest all-time sports stories.
im not a fan of bill simmons but he runs circles around Peter King, TMQ, and jemele hill, he is actually sometimes funny ( other than when he mentions his dad, stalking celebs , and friends by nic name )
ReplyDeleteand btw i saw you are doing an NCAA tourney pool are you going to do a fantasy baseball league this year?? me and my roommate ( both daily readers who love mocking easterbrook the worst writer in the history or man) dont have many friends who care about baseball enough to play in one
Great post...if only there were more writers/readers that actually contemplated what exactly they are writing/reading.
ReplyDeleteKent, I thought that was a pretty obvious contradiction as well. He acknowledges the Nation of Islam had a hit on his life but still seems to think Ali had Black America on his side. I am not a historian, though I do know a little bit of history, and I know the Nation of Islam (still is) was a powerful organization and if they weren't on his side then that definitely means all of Black America wasn't on his side initially.
ReplyDeleteI am glad you recall the fight because I know Bill probably didn't watch it. It's good to hear not everyone thought Ali would win. I think overall Bill is confusing pressures Tiger caused on himself with Ali's external pressures that weren't as easy to overcome as Bill wants to say they are.
Z Hixon, I am actually harder on Simmons because I hold him to a high standard. He can put out some interesting commentary at times and then other times I think he gets stubborn and wants to be right. I think TMQ is just terrible and I don't get whatever joke is trying to make.
I had thought about a Fantasy Baseball league. I had mentioned it once and no one showed interest or anything. If you want to start one, I would be glad to. It wasn't sure if everyone wanted to play a head-to-head league or the "normal" way the league is usually played. I prefer the usual way. I can start one though if there is interest.
We didn't talk much crap in the football league this year so that will have to change b/c I like discussions and not being quiet. Either way, thanks for reading and I will put something about it in my post tomorrow.
Matt, thanks for the compliment. I probably think too much about what I read and that becomes a pain in the ass sometimes.
I would be interested in a fantasy baseball league as well. In addition to the obligatory trashtalk, I would like Ben to make season previews and weekly recaps. You live in your mom's attic, you have plenty of time for that right ben? :-)
ReplyDeleteDan, wow season previews and weekly recaps! If anyone would be interested in reading about those then I would think about doing it. That could be my Saturday post, I just don't know if anyone not involved in the league would want to hear about it...but nobody wants to hear anything I write anyway, so...
ReplyDeleteI do live in my mom's attic and given the fact I am afraid of sunlight and human interaction, pretty much anything is possible for me as long as I don't have to talk to anyone without the benefit of a computer.