Thursday, September 24, 2009

28 comments I Liked Jim Rice Better Before He Got Into The HOF

UPDATE: It seems Joe Posnanski saw the exact same thing and is hopefully preparing a strong rebuttal that will probably blow the doors off mine. Stay tuned.

If theres one dude you dont want hearing about the smack you've been talking about Greinke, its Joe.

Hello everyone. Gosh, its been a long time since I've posted. Sorry, I've been busy with some things lately. What could possibly be more important than posting on a blog that I don't get paid to write on, you might ask? I'm glad you did. Well, I happened to be cruising car dealerships to look at cars and I stopped at one and came away with this beauty.

Yup, I bought a brand new 2010 Camaro, as you can see it proudly displayed in my mothers basement. But anyways I had to go through the pain in the ass process of getting it registered in NH to avoid getting killed by RI taxes, so I've been busy the past couple of weeks. Well, that and I've been playing Smokey and the Bandit with it since I got it.

Okay, now that I've got that out of the way, on to more important matters. Some of you might remember Jim Rice basically talking smack about Derek Jeter and a bunch of other ball players to some little league kids. In a nutshell it was along the lines of "they arent half as good as the players back in my day, I was dominant and feared, blah blah blah.....". Well, Mr. Rice has a blog and on it he made an interesting observation about Zack Grienke.

Greinke is a Good Pitcher-Not Dominant

To this I say: Jim Rice was a Good Ballplayer-Not Dominant. Really, Jim Rice? Now your going to start talking shit about Zack? This coming from the man who got elected into the HOF from a bunch of boston sportswriters lobbying the supposed "fear" he put into opposing pitchers? Nevermind the fact that Dick Allen, Albert Bell, hell, even Ron Santos has a better Cooperstown argument then you do.

Zack Greinke didn’t really impress me last night. He pitched well and maybe I caught him on a bad night, but to me he didn’t seem dominant.

Keeping in mind the fact that he is one start removed from having a Miguel Cabrera line drive hit him in the elbow, Zack threw six shutout innings, allowing only 2 hits, striking out 5 and walking 0. Maybe not his most dominant performance but, he did shut down one of the most potent lineups in the league. What? Theres more? Okay.

Greinke has may have the lowest ERA in the AL since Pedro Martinez in 2000, but he doesn’t strike me as the dominant force that Pedro was during his statistical peak.

Its kind of unfair to compare Greinke to a pitcher that had one of the most dominant pitching runs IN MLB HISTORY, dont you think, Jim? I mean, christ. After the game his ERA stood at 2.08. That is insane. He is 2nd in the league in K's and first in just about every meaningful statistic.

Don’t get me wrong, Greinke pitched very effectively but he was not the unhittable beast on the mound that Pedro or Clemens (or even Johan Santana) were during their reign of dominance.

Actually, I think I am getting you wrong. You are basically telling me that instead of being one of the best pitchers in the league, he is just.....meh. Not to mention, this is the only game you have seen him in this year. You know he does pitch to others teams besides those that reside in the AL East, right?

Side Rant: Why does it matter that he hasnt pitched that much to teams in the AL East? The AL Central has some really good hitters, too. Cabrera, Mauer, Morneau, Konerko, Thome (when he was still with the ChiSox), Beckham, Choo.....This seems to be the argument idiots make when saying they will not vote for him. Well, that and he doesnt have enough wins, which, I guess, is even stupider.

He only gave up two hits in 6 innings but struggled with his command and, with 5 strikeouts, it’s not like he was punching tickets up and down the Red Sox lineup

Yes. He struggled with his command WHILE WALKING ZERO BATTERS!!!!ZERO!!! He also struck out a little less than 1 per inning. What did you want, 10K's against one of the better hitting teams in the league? Plus he was one start removed from getting smacked on the elbow by a line drive. Man, Jim, its a good thing the HOF doesnt have the standards you have, eh?

He reminds me of a right-handed Roger Moret. He has that long and lean frame but good speed on his fastball and sporadic command.

Roger Moret: Career ERA+ 108. Career High ERA+ 128 Highest K Total: 111

Zack Greinke: Career ERA+120 Career High ERA+ sitting at 210 this year Highest K total: 229 and counting this year.

Where are the similarities? I mean, asides from them both having long and lean frames. Its like comparing Dustin Pedroia to David Eckstein (all hail the mighty ball of grit) even though the only thing similar is they are short and white.

How the fuck can you call Greinke good but not dominant based on one start? Jim Rice: Congrats on being elected into the HOF, but please stop writing stupid entries, such as this one, on your blog.


AJ said...

Greinke K's almost 10 per 9 innings...and walks just 2 per 9. He has a total of 47 walks this year in 31 starts...i dont know, that to me is pretty good command.

He is the best pitcher in baseball playing on one of the worst teams going against some of the best hitters in the game in his divison. Sorry he doesn't play for Boston or NY...but you know, there are other cities in the United States with baseball teams.

At least he used a good sample size of 6 innings pitched out of his 200+ innings this year to determine what kind of pitcher he is.

Fred Trigger said...

I know, I couldnt believe that Jim Rice would actually write something so stupid. He has said some stupid things in the past, but this one takes the cake. I meant to go into greater detail about Greinke's peripherals but it was getting late and I completely forgot about it. He also has one of the worst defenses playing behind him. Mike Jacobs--MIKE JACOBS!!!--was playing first base at the beginning of the year, and Billy Butler isnt exactly a huge upgrade.

Bengoodfella said...

I know, that kills me. He used 6 innings of baseball to determine what kind of pitcher Greinke was...and he determined he was not as great as Pedro was in 1999, which means he ultimately sucks. As Fred said, compared to that year, everyone sucks.

Fred, told me he forgot to mention that Greinke had 47 walks total this year, but that's pretty freaking good control. I don't know exactly what Jim Rice was looking for but you won't find a much better pitcher this year than Greinke.

I can't exactly buy the "he doesn't pitch against good competition" argument here either. First, there are those who say the NL isn't good enough competition, then there are those who say the AL Central isn't good enough competition, it does seem like there is only one or two divisions with good competition in people's minds.

I know it probably hurt Fred to say Jim Rice did not deserve necessarily to make the Hall of Fame, but I feel better that he as a Red Sox fan said it. I am a Braves fan and I am not advocating Dale Murphy for the Hall of Fame because I don't think he is good enough. If I was Jim Rice, I would be quiet and try not to talk too much about who is good enough for what honor.

Bengoodfella said...

Plus he plays for the Royals, I don't know how much run support he is getting, but I can't imagine it is a whole lot.

Fred Trigger said...

They give him roughly 3.5 runs per game. To be honest, I'm shocked its that high.

Joe Posnanski brought up a great point about how he gets knocked for not pitching against teams that are good (Not me saying it but everyone else is, mainly ESPN, the AL East) by saying "thats true but, he also doesnt get to pitch to the Royals." Greinke makes good teams look stupid, I couldnt imagine how a team full of automatic outs like the royals would fare. His ERA would be, like, 1.5 if he got to face the Royals 3 or so times this year.

I was never an advocate for Jim Rice in the HOF. He seems like a nice enough dude, but he needs to get over himself. I would at least hope that the VC puts in Dick Allen now. Now that guy was a beast, and he hit in shitty hitters parks.

Also, when Jim Rice talks, he sounds like a higher pitched Morgan Freeman.

Chris W said...

I love how Rice has obviously never seen Greinke pitch before this and is making assumptions about Greinke's "command" overall based on one start.

Never mind that Greinke has the best command (as distinct from control) in baseball. He also has pretty close to the best control.

But don't let that distract Rice from more self-edification.

What a cocksucker.

AJ said...

I've seen him pitch at least 5 times this year, and I agree...he has the best command of any pitcher I have seen this year...and probably any I've seen in a long time.

You know whats amazing, as I just looked at his game logs...he has yet to pitch against Minnesota. WTF! I'm sure he will pitch against them soon though, they play them 6 times the next 2 weeks.

Bengoodfella said...

Haha, Fred I never thought about that. I guess he doesn't get to pitch to the Royals, which is a major disadvantage for him. That Joe Pos is a smart guy sometimes isn't he?

I didn't think you were for Rice making the Hall of Fame. I compared him to Dale Murphy because there is a certain faction of Braves fan who think he should be in the Hall of Fame. I loved Dale Murphy and even named by my goldfish after him but he doesn't even come close to deserving to be in the Hall of Fame. I put Rice a step ahead of Murphy but I don't think he deserved it either.

Chris, he based everything he said on that one start, not only his command. Though I am glad he mentioned Greinke's command and how he didn't think it was that great because it showed just how little he actually had seen Greinke play and got him no credibility.

Rice has to know the difference in command and control right?

Fred Trigger said...

I think I saw on another blog where the author was upset because they were showing the sox-yanks game at 1pm because of yom kippur, which the author was fine with. But then he found out, that instead of showing the matchup between Greinke and the royals against Mauer and the twins, they were just going to replay the sox-yanks game from 1pm. I agree with him that it is ridiculous to just replay the game and not show the live game that would feature the (should be) Cy Young winner and the (again, should be) MVP winner.

Bengoodfella said...

Why replay old games if you can show a good game featuring two great young players. That doesn't make sense to me at all. No matter which game you are replaying, I think many people would rather see a live game featuring good players. What do I know though?

AJ, maybe Greinke was just having a good day when you saw him play because Jim Rice saw him once and his command wasn't that great. I have also been impressed with his control and command. He looks great, especially compared to how he looked a few years ago.

I like to watch Greinke pitch. He is not on Pedro '99 level of course but he isn't nearly as bad as Jim Rice saw that one game.

AJ said...

Off topic...King picked the Lions to win again this week. Do you think he is just going to do this every week just in case they do win, so that he can write on a Monday after they actually win a game saying he picked them to win?

KentAllard said...

Thanks for mentioning Dick Allen. If voters are going by "fear" factor, there was a brief period where pitchers were more afraid of Allen than anyone else they faced. I don't think he was a Hall of Famer, by any means, but he was something else. I remember seeing games on television where he lay on his back next to the dugout while his teammates batted, chain smoking. Baseball has done too good a job weeding out the real characters from the game.

Fred Trigger said...

Dick Allen is definately a borderline case but, if voters are going to elect Jim Rice based on his peak, I would say Dick Allen's peak was better by a mile, especially when you consider he didnt play all his home games in Fenway back when it was a hitters paradise. If I'm not mistaken, he played in the old Veterans Stadium and Comiskey park which, while not the hitters wasteland that the astrodome was, were definately not friendly to hitters.

When the boston writers were saying not to punish Rice for being surly towards the media, I think Dick Allen should have been mentioned along with Albert Belle. Because that is why they got no love.

KentAllard said...

Some of Allen's best years were in sort of a semi-dead ball period, too. When he led the AL in home runs in 72, he hit a relatively low 37. (The year before, his teammate Bill Melton led the league with either 32 or 33, memory escapes me.)

Fred Trigger said...

Alright, I just looked it up. In the year of the pitcher, 1969, Dick Allen hit .288/.375/.573, good for a .949 OPS and he also hit 32 HR. Thats pretty insane considering A) The pitchers mounds were a little shorter than the Empire State Building and B) he only played in 118 games that year. Thats pretty intense.

Fred Trigger said...

Basically, if he stayed healthy, hes in the HOF right now. Looking at his numbers, he almost never played a full season and yet he still put up comparable numbers to Jim Rice. Man, I'm really hating on Jim Rice today. Must've been that strong batch of haterade I made this morning.

Bengoodfella said...

AJ, I do believe Peter is picking the Lions until he is right. I know he is doing that. He's not a huge bragging type but I still think that is the case.

Dick Allen should probably be in the Hall of Fame. It all doesn't matter anymore. The HoF is so diluted I don't really give a shit who gets in at this point. I think Rice was actually rewarded for his surly behavior in the end because they felt bad about him being an asshole and voted him in.

Those are some crazy numbers for Dick Allen, especially in 118 games. Is this the beginning of the Dick Allen candidacy for HoF? Are there no dissenters? I am a HoF snob so I don't want to be the lone dissenter....because I don't think he should be in based on comparing his numbers to Rice's and saying they would be better IF he did not get injured. I actually don't care, but if I did, I wouldn't base the candidacy on those two things.

Go said...

Completely off topic but here is one of the most absurd articles I have seen. It's on CNN/SI and no it's not PK's.

Apparently Tom Brady must right the ship or history will look back at him as just another ordinary 3-time Super Bowl winner.

Bengoodfella said...

Go, why do you have to do that to me? I had that thing bookmarked and it was on my radar!

Now it looks like I am ripping articles off you. How dare you read the Internet and mention articles without my permission! That is a bad article. Throw in the towel Tommy Brady, you're done.

Chris W said...

Guess who forwarded that article to Joe Pos?

YA BOI. I forgot to give Fred Trig props though :( Sorry dude.

Chris W said...

PS: If I'm not mistaken Dick Allen's 1972 MVP season is one of the better seasons for a hitter ever

Chris W said...

PPS: BGF: Bill James of all people is one of the biggest anti-Dick Allen HOF guys...not because of his stats, but because Bill James thinks "he did more to hurt his teams than anyone he could think of" referencing Allen's divisive locker room behavior.

I love James, but I'm not sure that passes the smell test

Bengoodfella said...

It's ok if you forgot to give Fred props, I am sure he doesn't mind too much. We will have to follow up on this.

That reasoning James used was absolutely stupid in my opinion. You can't discount his year or part of his career because of how he divided the clubhouse. At least I don't think so.

Bengoodfella said...

I will be interested to see Joe P. writes anything about the article or not. Thanks for forwarding that to him Chris, good job there.

That was a great season Dick Allen had, I just wish he had been able to play the entire season. I don't know if we should count Jim Rice as a journalist but if so, he committed journalistic homicide in writing that article about Greinke after just seeing him one time.

KentAllard said...

After actually doing some research (I usually try not to let facts interfere with my opinions) I'm going to reverse myself and say Allen deserves to be in the HoF, especially the watered-down version that now exists. He played the bulk of his career in an era that favored the pitcher, and in big ballparks. He loses points with a lot of people because he didn't hang around long enough to pad his career stats.

Like everyone else, I've heard all the stories about Allen being divisive in the clubhouse, but the facts don't bear it out. His managers describe him as a strong leader, and his teammates (white and black) have vehemently disagreed that he was disruptive. Mike Schmidt gives Allen credit for mentoring him. I suspect Allen got a bad rap because he was an outspoken black man at a time that was seen with suspicion by many whites, and because he was one of the big critics of the reserve clause, and therefore an enemy to the owners.

Chris W said...

I suspect if you ask some of the white Phillies players from the late '60's (for instance, the white Frank Thomas) they might say differently.

I read Dick's biography "Crash" and it paints a picture of a latent racism that Allen had been fighting his whole career. It makes sense--baseball was still a semi-racist game in the 1960's, Philadelphia has always been a pretty racist town, and the set up of the old Veteran's stadium set up racial tension in the crowd at games.

That said, a lot of players said that early in his career, Allen--being a charismatic guy (and an alcoholic) divided clubhouses into "pro" and "anti-" Allen camps. That's pretty clear. It's also very clear that he quit on his team while in Chicago. I don't really blame him--Ron Santo is a cocksucker--but those negatives are certainly there.

I'd support him for the HOF, but there's no doubt that despite Mike Schmidt's (who was always a "pro"-Allen guy) endorsement and Chuck Tanner's endorsement, that Allen was a problematic clubhouse guy in some ways. I mean the definition of his problem in the clubhouse was EXACTLY that certain players on the team loved him and were unwaveringly loyal to him.

KentAllard said...

That's probably true. Perhaps the "old guard" white players were more inclined to dislike him due to the change he and others like him brought, while the younger players like Schmidt, et al, were more accepting?

Chris W said...

That's possible, but another thing we kind of forget is that Schmidt wasn't exactly a "beloved" character during his playing career. That's not to say he was a jerk or villain to the fans, but he was kind of a prickly guy who didn't always say "the right things" to the press.

We forget that now because he's more or less painted as a saint being, as he is, the greatest 3B ever to play the game...but I guess the point is that it wouldn't have been out of character for Schmidt to be friends with a quote/unquote asshole.

I mean this is the guy who went with Pete Rose to petition Selig to let Rose in the HOF (in fact, I think he used his HOF speech to lobby for Rose too)